Guest_ikonboard Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 New York - A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than half a century has changed his mind. He now believes in God - more or less - based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released on Thursday. At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England. Flew said he's best labelled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives. "I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose." Flew first made his mark with an article called Theology and Falsification in 1950, based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker CS Lewis. Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates. Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, Has Science Discovered God? The video draws from a discussion in New York last May organised by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews. The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote. The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's The Hidden Face of God and The Wonder of the World by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman. This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his God and Philosophy scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Press. Prometheus specialises in sceptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads." A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Maybe his reassessment is worth reflection. At 81, I'ld say more likely it's hedging yer bets. After all, he's not the first old boy to find himself placing a short stack on black to back up the long stack on red that he played his whole life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiremanDave Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Some get spiritual cause they see the light some cause they feel the heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 "I found Jesus, he was hiding behind the couch the whole time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterwinkle Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 "I found Jesus, he was hiding behind the couch the whole time." Wheather you know it or not, Jesus is every where. He's watching you 24/7/365. Makes me feel real good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
injun Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Isn't it amazing that those who profess no belief in God go to the trouble to convince others of something they don't believe exists in the first place ? By the way, I'd rather take the chance and believe in God - if one is wrong, then nothing lost, but if right, everything to gain. Forever is a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badcad Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 You keep dreaming of heaven! If it "gets you through" Im happy for you weak minded souls. I for one believe in other civilizations on other worlds we could have simply been an experiment but not by a gods hand. Wake up and look at the hell on earth that has been raging from the get go with no help from the man upatairs. And I always love the reasoning of the finger pointers who hide behind god(s) while passing judgment on others. I at the Idea of a religous figurehead that is all knowing loving all seeing..........Maybe he'll see all the lesbo nun's and faggot priests raping young children and do something about it.........I dont think so, He must be gay god or perhaps a hermaphrodite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottdog Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I have considered Flew's explanation as "God" actually being an intelligent scientist and the universe and us being the result of a chemical reaction in a petri dish. Not the "Super Intelligence" the Christians make him out to be. I still think the religious "God" is just a left over explanation for incomprehensible things from a primitive society that didn't allow science to be practiced. Nobody wants to tell their children they don't know something, so if you can't understand it yourself, you tell them "It's Gods way" or "She is a witch" or something. "Now go play." I still think Jesus Christ is a bunch of crap too. The poor guy just tried to speak his mind and he got tortured and killed for it. Like "God" would let that happen to his own kid if he was so powerful. Would you? God would have enlisted him in the National Guard or sent him to Canada or something. Religion is promoted by the upper classes to keep the lower classes satisfied with being ignorant. "You weren't meant to go to college Johnny. It's "Gods" way." "The little money we make was meant to be spent on cigarettes, drugs and alcohol." "Now go play." Poor kid. "I don't know why the Father likes to touch you like that, Johnny? It must be Gods way." See what you made me say, LR? STP, man! Stir The Pot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_ikonboard Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 My favorite part is to watch how much ignorance gets spewed out from both sides of this discussion. Both sides (and I am not just talking about on this board) love to spout what they believe to be true because it is what they feel, not what is known. People will shoot down Flew because of his age. Yet he is the person who the same people pointed to as their “truth” last year. Why? Because he was on “the team” and now he is the opposition. It is funny how his age was not questioned before. Have any of you really studied the strict Darwinian theory of evolution? The theory people are so quick to call truth; whether or not they realize that is what they are doing. There are as many, if not more, assumptions in the Darwinian Theory of evolution then there are in Creationism or Intelligent Design Theory. Anyone here ever read Flew? Darwin? Durkhiem? How about Maslow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_ikonboard Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 I have considered Flew's explanation as "God" actually being an intelligent scientist and the universe and us being the result of a chemical reaction in a petri dish. And how did you do that when the work has yet to be published? ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 OK, I'll try to be a little more to the point. There are more old dudes than young voluntarily in the pews on Sunday because, as has been noted, in the event that they are on it, it's a win. My days of digesting the ephemera are long over. Life's too short to while away the hours on the doggerel of the worlds "thinkers", not when I can be enjoying the products of its doers. I ran with thinkers and doers and brother, you can have the thinkers. I don't give a hoot what Flew knew or what See saw. To me, this is just another old cat and the end of his road is nigh. If that's ignorance, then I'm a blissful guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottdog Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England. You basically said he said it. I've never even heard of him. The actual lab experiment theory has been hashed around by many for years. Makes more sense to me than the almighty OZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugdbdt Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I like getting christmas presents every year. Always have - Always will... Thanks, Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_ikonboard Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 Again, not true; many assumptions. Not all questions have been answered and many have not been tested. Only thought to be true based on the persons belief. Intelligent Design is just as logical as Evolutional Theory. Both (and a belief in God) require blind faith at one time or another. If it weren’t for the thinkers the doers would have nothing to do. Flight, fire, internal combustion and on and on all came about because of thinkers. Now you may not consider Hendee a thinker but he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugdbdt Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 " I came here to sit and think - And all I've done is shit and stink..." Albert Einstein - Third stall from the left. Thanks, Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 "I found Jesus, he was hiding behind the couch the whole time." hey that's my line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Indian Rider Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 (Rom 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Rom 1:21 NIV) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Rom 1:22 NIV) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools Just a thought from a venerated text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indian T Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Can't I just ride my Indian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Indian Rider Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Sure you can!!!! I do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest_ikonboard Posted December 15, 2004 Author Share Posted December 15, 2004 Sure you can!!!!I do... Me too!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottdog Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 (Rom 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Rom 1:21 NIV) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Rom 1:22 NIV) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools Just a thought from a venerated text. Oh crap, I hate to start this but..... .... so, that's saying "God" is "it"? What ever "it" is? What ever "it" is that expelled the gases into space that mixed together causing the great chemical reactions that in turn created the universe and everything in it. Not necessarily a sentient (?) being with the intellectual capacity to do all this on purpose? Just, what ever "it" is that created the sky and the earth and you and me, we will call it "God" for now for the sake of conversation because we just don't want to get into all those scientific reasons and details and all that right now? Legitimate question. Not trying to push buttons. It makes sense though. Really, and the more time goes on and the more we manage to explain things to ourselves the less and less the use of the word "God" would be needed. Theoretically, its use could faze out all together? Theoretically? As I have stated before, even though I may not believe, I do have an interest. Sorry, am I spewing? I understand it is a respected text and all but, who wrote it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Charlie Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 One time through life is enough I don't want the extended warrantee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugdbdt Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 God is the extended warranty for your soul ? :uhoh: Thanks, Danny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushertx3 Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 You guys make up some interesting reading ..... some one some where is laughing really hard right now ! :cppl1 :charger: :wave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Indian Rider Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 (Rom 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (Rom 1:21 NIV) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Rom 1:22 NIV) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools Just a thought from a venerated text. Oh crap, I hate to start this but..... .... so, that's saying "God" is "it"? What ever "it" is? What ever "it" is that expelled the gases into space that mixed together causing the great chemical reactions that in turn created the universe and everything in it. Not necessarily a sentient (?) being with the intellectual capacity to do all this on purpose? Just, what ever "it" is that created the sky and the earth and you and me, we will call it "God" for now for the sake of conversation because we just don't want to get into all those scientific reasons and details and all that right now? Legitimate question. Not trying to push buttons. It makes sense though. Really, and the more time goes on and the more we manage to explain things to ourselves the less and less the use of the word "God" would be needed. Theoretically, its use could faze out all together? Theoretically? As I have stated before, even though I may not believe, I do have an interest. Sorry, am I spewing? I understand it is a respected text and all but, who wrote it? What or who God is? That is something each individual has to come to grips with. The Ancient venerated text says; God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6 KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. He will make himself known to the seeker (John 14:21 KJV) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. You can not take God out of the equation. He is! and everything exist in him and he is in everything. (Col 1:17 KJV) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Enough bible thumpin for now ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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