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Why should we not care what europe thinks?

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Appeasing Iran

November 12, 2004;


So can anyone explain the difference between the nuclear deal the Europeans are now waiting for -- indeed, practically begging -- Iran to accept and the 1994 Agreed Framework with North Korea?


The latter, readers will remember, was the Clinton Administration's failed attempt to buy off Pyongyang by providing it with fuel oil and a couple of light-water reactors in exchange for the North's promise to give up its nuclear weapons program. But as usual, appeasement didn't work. In 2002 the North booted out U.N. inspectors, turned off the TV cameras monitoring its nuclear facilities, and began demanding even larger payoffs to stay out of the nuclear business. North Korea had been running a secret program in violation of the Agreed Framework and is now estimated to possess as many as nine warheads.


Fast-forward to the current Franco-British-German proposal for Iran, and you find ... well, offers of light-water reactors and various economic payoffs in exchange for Iran's promise to temporarily suspend uranium enrichment activities. That's right, only temporarily, since Iran is demanding to be recognized soon as a perfectly normal nuclear nation. That's pretty audacious for the world's No. 1 state sponsor of terrorism, but it's not surprising given the way the world has responded thus far to its 20 years of nuclear deception.


Let's start with the Europeans, who are actually credulous enough to believe that there is some doubt over whether "hardliners" in Tehran will accept their generous offer. An exquisitely timed Monday story in Iran's Jomhuri-e-Islami newspaper appeared to denounce the country's delegation for dealing with the "three traitor European countries."


But the appearance of any dissension in the Iranian ranks is a fiction of the highest order. Last February Iran's ruling mullahs abandoned any pretense of running a democracy by disqualifying thousands of candidates for parliament (including scores of sitting deputies) and fully consolidating their control over the press. Now that press is playing Brer Rabbit, begging not to be thrown into the same briar patch where Pyongyang developed the bomb.


But we never expected much from Europe in the first place. Far more disappointing is that the White House has done little or nothing to support the work of Undersecretary John Bolton's non-proliferation team at the State Department. It can't have escaped the mullahs' notice that President Bush failed to mention them during his September speech at the United Nations. That was a shocking omission given the extent to which the Iranian nuclear program ought to occupy the Security Council over the coming year, and an unfortunate indicator of where White House priorities don't lie.


There isn't any doubt among serious observers that Iran is running a bomb program. In 2002 an Iranian resistance group exposed two decades of Iranian nuclear double-dealing with the International Atomic Energy Agency by revealing a secret enrichment facility at Natanz and a heavy-water plant at Arak. In October 2003 a European-brokered inspections deal offered the mullahs a chance to come clean but they continued to deceive.


Among other pieces of information Iran has since failed to volunteer is the fact that they possess advanced P-2 centrifuges of the type peddled by Pakistani A-bomb merchant A.Q. Khan. They've been found to be working with polonium-210, an element whose primary use is as a bomb trigger. And IAEA inspectors have found traces of uranium enriched far beyond the grade needed for use in a civilian power reactor. Consider also Iran's rapid advance in the field of medium- to long-range ballistic missile technology, which surely isn't meant for carrying conventional warheads.


The only question is whether the world is going to do anything about all this. The Europeans are essentially arguing that any deal with the mullahs is better than nothing, given Tehran's repeated threats to withdraw altogether from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. But what's really more dangerous: immediate clarity regarding Iran's real intentions, or the country going nuclear with the quiet blessing of the IAEA and the permanent discrediting of the multilateral arms control system?


President Bush needs to pay some overdue attention to Iran now that the election is over, and put the above case to his friend and ally Tony Blair. The model for disarming Iran ought to be the process the two countries have just gone through with Libya's Moammar Gadhafi: unambiguous cooperation, including the handover of all nuclear and WMD-related facilities. Anything less -- like the Agreed Framework Part II now on offer -- deserves only one response in Washington and London: No deal.

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Possesion of nuclear weapons doesn't necessarily mean they're going to bomb the west with them.  Several unfriendly countries have nukes and no one has been bombed yet...well, except the Japanese by the Americans :bomb: , but that's not the issue here.


Possesion of nuclear weapons is the ultimate in deterence against foreign aggression.  North Korea is quite convinced that they haven't been attacked because of their nukes.  This doesn't mean Iran won't attack either, but if I were a nation under threat from another country, I'd want to make sure I had a damn big stick to disuade any fighting.


Just think of them as the country-level equivalent of guns - every nation should have one - that way we'd all be safe.  :rasp:

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Several unfriendly countries have nukes and no one has been bombed yet...well, except the Japanese by the Americans :bomb: , but that's not the issue here.

Thats because we were running out of napalm. After we turned tokyo into a firestorm. Wasn't even targeted for nukes.Place was already BBQ :veryangry:


Thats what they got for bombing Pearl Harbor....I say we cut to the chase with the fucking ragheads.After they bombed us at the towers :bomb: . Times a wastin.


Oh yea  Fuck Europe and the U.N. :bomb:

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Isreal is widely believed to possess as many as twenty nuclear warheads, along with the means to deliver them. It is thought that their stratagy, if they are ever invaded by the arab nations again, is to nuke the twenty largest arab population centers. Though they possess, pound for pound, one of the most effective military forces to be found, they are vastly outnumbered population-wise. They are thought to feel that this will even the odds somewhat and reduce the arabs to a manageable level.
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I think they can take care of themselves!

Remember they are the chosen ones



Weapons of Mass Destruction Capabilities and Programs




   * Sophisticated nuclear weapons program with an estimated 100-200 weapons, which can be delivered by ballistic missiles or aircraft.

   * Nuclear arsenal may include thermonuclear weapons.

   * 150MW heavy water reactor and plutonium reprocessing facility at Dimona, which are not under IAEA safeguards.

   * IRR-1 5MW research reactor at Soreq, under IAEA safeguards.

   * Not a signatory of the NPT; signed the CTBT on 9/25/96.





   * Active weapons program, but not believed to have deployed chemical warheads on ballistic missiles.

   * Production capability for mustard and nerve agents.

   * Signed the CWC on 1/13/93, currently debating its ratification.





   * Production capability and extensive research reportedly conducted at the Biological Research Institute in Ness Ziona.

   * No publicly confirmed evidence of production.

   * Not a signatory of the BTWC.


Ballistic missiles



   * Approximately 50 Jericho-2 missiles with 1,500km range and 1,000kg payload, nuclear warheads may be stored in close proximity.

   * Approximately 50 Jericho-1 missiles with 500km range and 500kg payload.

   * MGM-52 Lance missiles with 130km range and 450kg payload..

   * Shavit space launch vehicle (SLV) with 4,500km range and 150kg to 250kg payload.

   * Unconfirmed reports of Jericho-3 program under development using Shavit technologies, with a range up to 4,800km and 1000kg payload.

   * Developing Next (Shavit upgrade) SLV with unknown range and 300-500kg payload.


Cruise missiles



   * Harpy lethal unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) with 500km range and unknown payload.

   * Delilah/STAR-1 UAV with 400km range and 50kg payload.

   * Gabriel-4 anti-ship cruise missile with 200km range and 500kg payload.

   * Harpoon anti-ship cruise missile with 120km range and 220kg payload.


Other delivery systems



   * Fighter and ground-attack aircraft incllude: 2 F-15I, 6 F-15D, 18 F-15C, 2 F-15B, 36 F-15A, 54 F-16D, 76 F-16C, 8 F-16B, 67 F-16A, 50 F-4E-2000, 25 F-4E, 20 Kfir C7, and 50 A-4N.

   * Ground systems include artillery and rocket launchers.  Also, Popeye-3 land-attack air-launched missile with 350km range and 360kg payload, and Popeye-1 land-attack air-launched missile with 100km range and 395kg payload.

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Thats what they got for bombing Pearl Harbor....I say we cut to the chase with the fucking ragheads.After they bombed us at the towers :bomb: . Times a wastin.

No arguments about Japan.


Ya'll did that already, or ya started it.  Most of the guilty came from Saudi but Bush and crew thought it would be more fun to bomb the shit out of a stone-age country (oh yeah, and to liberate the women).


The world was with you in Afghanistan, Canada was there (4 of our soldiers were killed by a hotdog US Reserves pilot) - everyone supported or at least understood the action.  You want to 'get' the bad guys?  Go to Saudi where most of them were from.  The so-called bad-guys in Iraq are simply fighting the invading force - same thing you or I would do if our respective countries were invaded (say by China, coming to free us from our oppresive capitalist societies and install an interim government to ease in the more enlightened communist government).  Hard to fault a guy in fighting for his country.

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Iraq was the perfect choice. Besides liberating a once very pro American people. It provides a central operating area to attack other Al Q areas. It will work as example to other Arab countrys it it's finished. Al Q had strong ties to Irag & got $ from them & many other Arab countys. I'm sure they will all be delt with in time.

Don't ever think terrorist will stop, They are the enemy of the non-muslem world. When they get tired of locking horns with us they will start on countries without backbone to get what they want.

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And when they do start locking horns with countries that make easier targets--we need to remember what type of support those countries gave us before we go bail their sorry asses out of trouble again.


I say when they turn on France-we turn a blind eye on it, and not waste one more drop of American blood on those ungrateful French Fucks! :veryangry:

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