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State Of The Brand Address


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I've been quietly watching things. I recently saw a 2014 Chiertain for sale locally for 9k. Low miles. Black. Nice bike. It may be an anomaly but I see a pattern developing. Values of the Polaris bikes are dropping fast. Think about it. A 3 year old bike with all the bells and whistles is bringing barely more than a 17 year old Gilroy. Not going from emotion, just trying to be objective. Polaris is making a mistake opening so many dealerships in my opinion and they are losing any kind of brand loyalty and culture. Please don't post how much you love your bike. Let's talk about why values have dropped 60% in 3 years. I have my ideas but want to hear other opinions first.

 

 

 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/521946354819508

Edited by badndn
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My mechanic just sold a Gilroy Chief for just under $6k

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The 14s are a early version of what's exciting to the buyer these days. Another words, ride command, nicer stereo, better ergonomics, etc on the new bikes, why would I want a 14 ? A lot of the buying public is gonna finance anyway, so why not get what you want, and with an aging purchase powered pool of riders, well, full dress is just nice. In the end I wish I would have waited for the newer version, but,,,,, I love my bike.

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That 2014 went out the door at over 21k. There will continue to be more and more crap added to the bikes every year. Same with cars. The depreciation on the Polaris bikes so far is extreme. If there are no new flashy shiney stuff to attract new buyers to the new bikes then people will revert back to buying the cheap used ones. See the problem that is forming? Endless cycle. They need a new exciting model.

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I think its an anamoly... but of course youre just trying to be objective...

 

I just did a search on cycletrader... the lowest price was 11,900 for a bike with 50k miles... most were in the 15 to 17k range..

 

We are in to our 7th year of production under Polaris.. some people have had problems, most havent...

 

the family has grown... not all the new relatives are as cool as us...

 

There are new forums... there are new dealers.. there are lots of new things happening.. there are even aftermarket suppliers...

 

Things are changing from the Gilroy days... I see Indians on the road occasionally... things are better with the brand... it feels like it might stick...

 

Lots of positives... a few negatives... biggest is customer service for those that need it... seems it sucks... but I cant say that from experience... Ive yet to need it...

 

But please... continue with the objectivity... 😎

Edited by stu
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I see very few on the road around here or in my travels. Like most Harleys, I guess they sit in the garage except for bluebird Saturdays.

I suspect as we boomers die off, the market will get flooded with Indians and Harleys and the values will go down even further.

I wonder about the 60's and 70's muscle car values, too.

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I think its an anamoly... but of course youre just trying to be objective...

 

I just did a search on cycletrader... the lowest price was 11,900 for a bike with 50k miles... most were in the 15 to 17k range..

 

We are in to our 7th year of production under Polaris.. some people have had problems, most havent...

 

the family has grown... not all the new relatives are as cool as us...

 

There are new forums... there are new dealers.. there are lots of new things happening.. there are even aftermarket suppliers...

 

Things are changing from the Gilroy days... I see Indians on the road occasionally... things are better with the brand... it feels like it might stick...

 

Lots of positives... a few negatives... biggest is customer service for those that need it... seems it sucks... but I cant say that from experience... Ive yet to need it...

 

But please... continue with the objectivity...

As usual, Stu is waving the Polaris banner. I am being objective. I think you aren't.. It is evident by the way you try to skew facts. Yes, Polaris has owned the brand for 7 years, but they have been producing their version of the Chief for 3 years. But you know that. Yes, they have sold some bikes. Not an incredible number, but better than Gilroy and KM and better than Victory. I still feel like the numbers have to be disappointing based on the huge $$$ they have invested. It will take 50 years to recoup the investment. Not to mention the lost profit potential had this money been invested in something else. This is evident in stock performance.They have had major issues. They have had numerous recalls that have cost investors tens of millions of $$$. Not small change. Plus they have ongoing nagging problems that to me indicate an overall lack of quality control. The overall engineering seems to be sound, but it is still early looking at the big picture. The crazy depreciation on the newer models is completely Polaris' fault. They have painted themselves into a corner by simply upgrading the same bike for three years. They can't physically alter the basic look of the Chief. They found that out with the "Elite". So it comes down to what I said from the very beginning. Polaris has to produce a NEW model that isn't a rebadged Victory, or isn't a copy of a late 40's Chief. The market is limited for wanna be 1948 Indian Chiefs. I love the look, but many don't. They have to build a bike that will show that Polaris CAN design and build a desirable bike. They failed to do that with Victory. As of now, they haven't done that, despite 20+ years of trying. Polaris chose the Stu plan of mass producing cookie cutter bikes at lower profit margins for the dealers and pissing with the big boys. They can't go back now, nor will their stockholders allow them to. They need a new design team.

Edited by badndn
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As usual, Stu is waving the Polaris banner. I am being objective. I think you aren't.. It is evident by the way you try to skew facts. Yes, Polaris has owned the brand for 7 years, but they have been producing their version of the Chief for 3 years. But you know that. Yes, they have sold some bikes. Not an incredible number, but better than Gilroy and KM and better than Victory. I still feel like the numbers have to be disappointing based on the huge $$$ they have invested. It will take 50 years to recoup the investment. Not to mention the lost profit potential had this money been invested in something else. This is evident in stock performance.They have had major issues. They have had numerous recalls that have cost investors tens of millions of $$$. Not small change. Plus they have ongoing nagging problems that to me indicate an overall lack of quality control. The overall engineering seems to be sound, but it is still early looking at the big picture. The crazy depreciation on the newer models is completely Polaris' fault. They have painted themselves into a corner by simply upgrading the same bike for three years. They can't physically alter the basic look of the Chief. They found that out with the "Elite". So it comes down to what I said from the very beginning. Polaris has to produce a NEW model that isn't a rebadged Victory, or isn't a copy of a late 40's Chief. The market is limited for wanna be 1948 Indian Chiefs. I love the look, but many don't. They have to build a bike that will show that Polaris CAN design and build a desirable bike. They failed to do that with Victory. As of now, they haven't done that, despite 20+ years of trying. Polaris chose the Stu plan of mass producing cookie cutter bikes at lower profit margins for the dealers and pissing with the big boys. They can't go back now, nor will their stockholders allow them to. They need a new design team.

I'm actually waving the Indian banner....

 

But... I'm glad you think you are being objective... putting one low priced Indian for sale without looking at prices of others in the same category is hardly objective... so I disagree with you again and think you are still butt hurt because the previous incarnation of high dollar low volume Indians for the boat shoe crowd failed...

 

I think they are producing 2018's now... isn't that the 5th year of producing their version? But again, you are being objective and your hatred of the new Indian does not show through, very much...

 

And I like how you throw out return on investment numbers... like you know... you also seem to know that KM made a huge profit... how is it you know these things? Or do you just throw it out there like it's a fact and expect everyone to believe it?

 

Now the recalls... you throw that out there like all these recalls are Indian only... they will affect profit margins.. but I'd think each entity is an independent business and SlingShot recalls won't affect the Indian bottom line...

 

You call the new Indians cookie cutter... how different are they from the KM or Gilroy era bikes... weren't they cookie cutter? aren't all bikes cookie cutter... isn't everything produced in volumes greater than 1 cookie cutter?

 

And I don't see how the same model produced for multiple years paint you into a corner... How long has the Road King been produced? How about the Heritage? They seem to still be selling....

 

Now about my business model... seems to be working... This is the longest run of any owner in recent history.... thankfully Polaris was listening to me....

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Noticed map on Indian mc website still showing total of four dealerships in los angeles / san diego areas. Haven't seen any forum comments regarding these dealers.

 

Me Ride Um Centennial [MRUC]

cheers

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they are following the HD way. I've always said if I bought the polaris version in would be used and when they hit the 10 grand mark. I knew it wouldn't take long I will still wait till the ones with more options hit that level. Glad Indian is doing well but like Eddie I don't care for their business plan. Customer service is also at HD levels. You got some good dealers but the shitty ones are who bring the name down.

 

 

 

My .02

 

Al

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Lots of questions Stu and I have answered most of them already. But let's be real here Stu. Indian is not an independent company. Polaris is Indian. No if, ands or buts. Indian has to be profitable for the stockholders. End of story. It isn't hard to see the corner they are painting themselves into. You build the same model year after year and the only incentive to buy the new ones is gizmos and trim, soon either the new models or the resell value on us used models are gonna tank. Why do you think auto manufacturers do drastic changes on models as sales get stagnant on a previously good seller? Polaris has produced 3 model years of Indians. Do you remember when the first 2014 chiefs were delivered to the buyers?? You overestimate my extent of caring about Polaris. I own no polaris stock. I don't own a Polaris Indian. I really don't care. Just making observations about what they have done with the brand. What is there to be emotional about anyway?

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Lots of questions Stu and I have answered most of them already. But let's be real here Stu. Indian is not an independent company. Polaris is Indian. No if, ands or buts. Indian has to be profitable for the stockholders. End of story. It isn't hard to see the corner they are painting themselves into. You build the same model year after year and the only incentive to buy the new ones is gizmos and trim, soon either the new models or the resell value on us used models are gonna tank. Why do you think auto manufacturers do drastic changes on models as sales get stagnant on a previously good seller? Polaris has produced 3 model years of Indians. Do you remember when the first 2014 chiefs were delivered to the buyers?? You overestimate my extent of caring about Polaris. I own no polaris stock. I don't own a Polaris Indian. I really don't care. Just making observations about what they have done with the brand. What is there to be emotional about anyway?

Eddie..... you start with a contradiction followed by a mistake I've already corrected...

 

You say Indian is not an independent entity.... then go on to say Indian must be profitable for the stock holders... sounds independent... I stated they were independent in reference to your claim of 'all the recalls' ... it seemed you were lumping all the recalls from all the other business units together.... they are independent business units... each must succeed or fail on their own.... so, yes, Indian must be profitable to Polaris and the stockholders... but the SlingShot recalls do not impact the bottom line of Indian.... and to have a bottom line you must be an independent business unit....

 

Your math sucks... follow closely.... Production years

 

1 - 2014

2 - 2015

3- 2016

4- 2017

5 - 2018

 

that is 5 years of production... I said they were in their 5th... you are still claiming only 3....

 

So... I don't understand why you're so emotional about this... but contradictions and falsehoods don't help your case....

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Lots of questions Stu and I have answered most of them already. But let's be real here Stu. Indian is not an independent company. Polaris is Indian. No if, ands or buts. Indian has to be profitable for the stockholders. End of story. It isn't hard to see the corner they are painting themselves into. You build the same model year after year and the only incentive to buy the new ones is gizmos and trim, soon either the new models or the resell value on us used models are gonna tank. Why do you think auto manufacturers do drastic changes on models as sales get stagnant on a previously good seller? Polaris has produced 3 model years of Indians. Do you remember when the first 2014 chiefs were delivered to the buyers?? You overestimate my extent of caring about Polaris. I own no polaris stock. I don't own a Polaris Indian. I really don't care. Just making observations about what they have done with the brand. What is there to be emotional about anyway?

Automotive manufacturers get away with a 5 year refresh strategy. Take a model, give it minor tweaks in colors, options, etc for five years. Then do a total re-design after the 5 years is up to keep it new. Polaris may be using that strategy??

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Automotive manufacturers get away with a 5 year refresh strategy. Take a model, give it minor tweaks in colors, options, etc for five years. Then do a total re-design after the 5 years is up to keep it new. Polaris may be using that strategy??

Maybe. But i don't think a start up motorcycle company with a past failure can do that.

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Eddie..... you start with a contradiction followed by a mistake I've already corrected...

 

You say Indian is not an independent entity.... then go on to say Indian must be profitable for the stock holders... sounds independent... I stated they were independent in reference to your claim of 'all the recalls' ... it seemed you were lumping all the recalls from all the other business units together.... they are independent business units... each must succeed or fail on their own.... so, yes, Indian must be profitable to Polaris and the stockholders... but the SlingShot recalls do not impact the bottom line of Indian.... and to have a bottom line you must be an independent business unit....

 

Your math sucks... follow closely.... Production years

 

1 - 2014

2 - 2015

3- 2016

4- 2017

5 - 2018

 

that is 5 years of production... I said they were in their 5th... you are still claiming only 3....

 

So... I don't understand why you're so emotional about this... but contradictions and falsehoods don't help your case....

Stu... you are pretending you don't understand how a large corporation work. Indian is a brand under the Polaris corp. Under that umbrella, is a smaller umbrella..The on highway division. Under that umbrella lies Indian. Far from an independent entity. So...to an extent Indian must perform on an independent basis, but the entire on-highway division is also judged together. It's like you as employee. You are judged as an employee, and your contributions are evaluated, but in the end it is about the success of the company you work for. As far as the recalls, Indian has had their share. Safety related. Effecting virtually every bike they have built. Not small $$. Weren't the first bikes produced around the middle of 2014? I could be mistaken. I guess it depends if you measure from the butthole or not whether they have been building the same bikes for 3.5 years or 7 as you say. I say I am a lot closer to the truth.Anyway... saying they having been building the same basic bike for 5 years makes my case even more compelling. Thanks for pointing that out.

Edited by badndn
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Wow Eddie...

 

I cant quite follow your logic... can Indian be closed down and not the highway division? Can all components of the highway division, except Indian, be shutdown? Can the highway division be shutdown and Polaris still remain in business? I think the answer is yes to all... so Indian is judged independently... although... they all are a part of the corporation and the corporation must be profitable as a whole... many times a business unit that is not profitable is shutdown... like Victory... and it does not impact the other business units...

 

Now recalls.. yes Indian has had some and they were probably costly.... shame but it happens...

 

Now for years producing the same bike... you said 3... I said 5... twice... somehow you change that to you said 3.5 and I said 7... and claim you are closer to correct than me...

 

I still say 5 years of production of their design... but you can spin that any way you like...

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Here's few reasons why some choose to pay more for an Indian mc. IMO.

 

Indian is only motorcycle with a particular large fender style, preferred by quite a few nostalgic riders, along with tribute American Indian war bonnet. For whatever reason no other major manufacturer has offered the same.

 

Indian mc has reentered nationally sanctioned American motorcycle racing circuit. This, with a sweep of first through third place in 2017 race which historically always carried some weight when it comes to competition for yearly sales. Remains to be seen how it all pans out regarding future sales.

 

Indian mc bikes r seen more often these days around the world. However, compared to Brand X, Indians continue to present a unique dare I mention...exclusive appeal to some riders. Plus, America's oldest and first motorcycle brand. ad nausea.

 

 

Me Ride Um Centennial [MRUC]

cheers

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Still closer to three years Stu. You said in your first post Polaris has been building Indians for 7 years. I said they have been building theirs fir 3. But are you happy with the depreciation on the new bikes? Are you happy with the progress they have made in 7 years? How much longer can they go without a new model? This was the intent and direction of my post. As it stands now Polaris is so upside down with their motorcycle experiments it ain't even funny.

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Eddie...

 

I said we are into our 7th year of production

 

You said but theyve only been building their version for 3 years

 

I said... no theyre into their 5th year of producing their version

 

You came back with 3.5 years and me saying 7... and that you are closer to being right...

 

Well... your just wrong... neither 3 nor 3.5 define how long they have been building any kinds of bikes...

 

7 and 5 are numbers that actually work..

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Article I ran arcross a few days ago. Yall might find it interesting

 

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-motorcycle-summit-20171214-story.html

 

The most accurate and telling quote of that entire article to me is pasted below. That's one of the big reasons I don't ride much, especially in urban areas. The second is a lack of time with my current job.

 

Even more worrying, Pandya's report said, is the approaching widespread adoption of autonomous vehicles, whose prevalence on public roads may leave no safe space for motorcycling.

"There is a very real risk of motorcycling being completely cut out of the conversation for future vehicle infrastructure systems," the panel concluded. "The single biggest threat to motorcycling overall … will be the incompatibility between autonomous vehicles and existing motorcycles."

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Cops won't be driving autonomous vehicles & neither will I.

 

With the complications of AI reliability, self driving vehicles may never fully materialize as widespread transport.

 

Phukem all anyhow. :rauch08:

 

**************************************************************************************

 

Polaris started designing their 'versions' of the Indian Motorcycle back in 1998.

 

PII has had their nose under the tent all along ~ sniffing at the $$$ controlling Harley's nemisis could bring. :grin:

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Cops won't be driving autonomous vehicles & neither will I.

 

With the complications of AI reliability, self driving vehicles may never fully materialize as widespread transport.

 

Phukem all anyhow. :rauch08:

 

**************************************************************************************

 

Polaris started designing their 'versions' of the Indian Motorcycle back in 1998.

 

PII has had their nose under the tent all along ~ sniffing at the $$$ controlling Harley's nemisis could bring. :grin:

Ooooh a new twist, 1998.

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