homer Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 If ethanol based fuels (85/15) are better, cheaper, can be made from renewable sources (wood chips, beer waste, beets) and cars can be made to run faster with it, why haven't we been making cars to use it since Henry Ford's days?? I remember being told fuels containing ethanol was bad....then i remember back in my home town, they built and ethanol plant to convert the waste from the sugar mills into ethanol, but it either never opened or never got up to capacity.. i bet haliburton had something to do with it! eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissIndian Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Tell me something new ! BTW. ....... where is my `s p p ` .......... thatnks for nothing !!!!!!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 i read somewhere that ethanol is not cheap to make in big picture because it takes fuel to work the fields, process the grain or sugarcane or whatever they are using....and then transport it to plant...then convert it to ethanol whether using coal, fuel, natural gas or hydroelectric.....it takes a good sized fuel consumption footprint. And to plant enough to make a real impact to the fuel requirements of this country would cripple the food market or other markets that also use those products. not sure if any of that was true or not.....but remember reading it somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
335 Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Can,t remember if it Brazil or Argentina, but they seem to be doing very well with ethanol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Ethanol-based engines Ethanol is most commonly used to power automobiles, though it may be used to power other vehicles, such as farm tractors and airplanes. Ethanol (E100) consumption in an engine is approximately 51% higher than for gasoline since the energy per unit volume of ethanol is 34% lower than for gasoline.[16][17] However, the higher compression ratios in an ethanol-only engine allow for increased power output and better fuel economy than could be obtained with lower compression ratios.[18][19] In general, ethanol-only engines are tuned to give slightly better power and torque output than gasoline-powered engines. In flexible fuel vehicles, the lower compression ratio requires tunings that give the same output when using either gasoline or hydrated ethanol. For maximum use of ethanol's benefits, a much higher compression ratio should be used,[20] which would render that engine unsuitable for gasoline use. When ethanol fuel availability allows high-compression ethanol-only vehicles to be practical, the fuel efficiency of such engines should be equal to or greater than current gasoline engines. Current high compression ethanol-only engine designs are approximately 20-30% less fuel efficient than their gasoline-only counterparts.[21] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indian T Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 and there you have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) now that i think about it... i know the flex fuel (E85) vehicles are less effecient..so the only benefit would be "Green"..in fact, you'll spend the same or more on fuel because of the increased consumption. but the thing i watched overnite on "how do they do that", showed these vehicles that were more effecient and more powerful--must be the higher compression models? But i'm pretty sure they burned 85% ethanol and 15% fuel, because they mentioned that the ethanol must be 99% pure or else the water in it would not let the gasoline mix with the ethanol. as for the big picture costs-- back home, they built the ethanol plant right next to the sugar mill..and the plant in colorado is right next to the Coors brewery, and it makes use of the millions of gallons of waste from the plant.. and this report said it was "cheap" to make ethanol..now that may be spin tho.. thanks boss chief... you made it kinda clear.. seems like if we really wanted, we would have had an ethanol infrastructure over the last 30yrs..wasn't enough money in it for the auto and oil companies i'm sure.. and woody..believe it or not, i've been looking for a way to get your s.p.p... but i haven't found it yet.. eric Edited July 4, 2009 by homer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 now that i think about it...many stations now sell E10 and it's cheaper...so they got you...you're paying less for it but burning more..and the oil companies are making billions on the increased amount of fuel you're buying.. eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 (edited) yeah there is a big difference in being GREEN and being efficient.... Natural Gas or nitrogen is way to go ....I am interested in the long term test results BMW is doing for the past year or two on a 5 series Hyrdrogen sports sedan. Edited July 4, 2009 by Brock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 If ethanol based fuels (85/15) are better, cheaper, can be made from renewable sources (wood chips, beer waste, beets) and cars can be made to run faster with it, why haven't we been making cars to use it since Henry Ford's days?? I remember being told fuels containing ethanol was bad....then i remember back in my home town, they built and ethanol plant to convert the waste from the sugar mills into ethanol, but it either never opened or never got up to capacity.. i bet haliburton had something to do with it! eric All the chemicals used to grow the grains that are converted to ethanol cause more pollution than the gas they are trying to replace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Another benefit of ethanol(some would say the only benefit) is that it tastes yummy and makes you feel funny.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I will never get used to riding or driving on high pressure gas cylinders. A couple of Ethanol cars I have seen and ridden in would feel like they need more mower or pedals. Even some of the Ballard power cells are great idea but they do lack performance. But I do like the Diesel performance tech that is hitting the road now. Diesel has no end to its power and it is so simple to make. Europe has been running diesel for years longer then us. One of the innovators is Banks, he is making some great strides in the technology. I remember my Dads old Kenworth with the twin 20lb propane squirt system he rigged in it for those hauls from Texas. The glow out the top of the stacks was something else to see. Banks link to Jays garage Some of the Ethanol tech is just to get carbon credits or what ever government tax credit the big corps get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 All the chemicals used to grow the grains that are converted to ethanol cause more pollution than the gas they are trying to replace. maybe...but if it's made from waste material that's already being made???? and i agree...alcohol is yummy for your tummy... eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebird77clone Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I should really get my dad to come on here and set ya'all straight on this ethanol issue, but I'll try to paraphrase... #1.. it takes more energy to make ethanol compared to gasoline. #2.. it makes more pollution per gallon of ethanol than it saves by burning cleaner #3.. ethanol makes less power compared to gasoline. therefore it is less efficient to operate you vehicle on ethanol. #4.. ethanol production is causing food prices in all countries to escalate, as farmers switch from raising food crops to raising ethanol crops. ok, now this is not an official #5, but I offer the following for your consieration: What is the LARGEST cultivated crop in the US? nope. not even close it's GRASS! Yep, every weekend millions of Americans get out there and mow their lawn. What do they do with the clippings? Some let them fall on the ground. Some compost them. Some fill the landfills up. I'll let you do the math.. the countries largest agricultural cultivated crop, is not being used.. nope, not, nada zip. And yet the Govt is subsidizing farmers to grow ethanol corn. hmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCH Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 And it wastes a lot of precious water too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikenscout Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 ethanol is a political cry, just like banning R-12 freon was giong to fix all the climate issues. When's the last time ya heard about R-12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 ethanol is a political cry, just like banning R-12 freon was giong to fix all the climate issues. When's the last time ya heard about R-12? aren't they going to R410 or something now? after jan 1 you won't be able to get r22 anymore.. eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCH Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 aren't they going to R410 or something now? after jan 1 you won't be able to get r22 anymore..eric The patent running out on that one too??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikenscout Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 That's the beauty of it, you can still get R12, just at 100x the price of what it used to be, and, hold on to your hats, it comes from................... drum roll...................... China. The started construction of the worlds largest freon plant when the hype was at a fever pitch here on banning arosol cans and R12. Your R22 will probably meet the same fate. Anything banned here just gets made cheaper overseas and you pay at least 1o times more for it. As for the freon, you have to have a license to buy it, just isn't available to the general public. Ethanol will only be feasible if petroleum truly and actually runs out, in other words when ya have to use anything you can. You trade pumping from deep wells to devastating the environmsnt in farming as has never been seen before. Don't think the fertilizers, irrigation, processing, etc doesn't have a big effect on the environmant, and many say it's worse in the long run if you look at the total picture. And guess what, whatever goes to the highest bedder, i.e. oil companies, means it doesn't go to the grocery store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 i'd imagine anything we do will have some environmental affect.. the question will eventually be renewable vs non-renewable.. the next war will likely be fought over oil..and likely with china as they will be the next largest consumer of the stuff next to the US military. eventually we will need to look to alternatives, it seems like ethanol may or may not be feasable, depending on who you ask??..and which part of the arguement (supply, demand, enviroment, efficiency, etc) they concentrate on. this will go to politics as usual it seems. it seems i've gotten a good amount of responses to the original question. thanks for confusing me more.. now i'm going ride a dino oil based malfa machine.... eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homer Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 The patent running out on that one too??? yeah..i bet someone is getting rich off of this... the companies get to sell new equipment because of the line pressure difference...no more money in this one? let's create a need for a "better" one and outlaw the old.. eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCH Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 yeah..i bet someone is getting rich off of this...the companies get to sell new equipment because of the line pressure difference...no more money in this one? let's create a need for a "better" one and outlaw the old.. eric I will bet you dollars to donuts that is closer to the truth than anyone wants to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K9RANGER Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 I should really get my dad to come on here and set ya'all straight on this ethanol issue, but I'll try to paraphrase... #1.. it takes more energy to make ethanol compared to gasoline. #2.. it makes more pollution per gallon of ethanol than it saves by burning cleaner #3.. ethanol makes less power compared to gasoline. therefore it is less efficient to operate you vehicle on ethanol. #4.. ethanol production is causing food prices in all countries to escalate, as farmers switch from raising food crops to raising ethanol crops. Firebirds got this one. I have two Ethanal Plants within 45 miles of me. One is shutdown and the other is close to being bankrupt. Here in farm country the ethanol plants drove up the price of corn due to it being turned into Ethanol rather than food products. Its true it requires mores energy to make ethanol than it creates as a gas substitute. Ethanol plants only can survive with government subsidized programs and 4.00 a gallon gas. And yes E85 gets worse mileage than normal gas making the price to miles about equal. The only good thing about Ethanol is we dont have to put HEET in our gas tanks when its -20 below. Most gas sold in MN is 10% Ethanol. Its only a penny cheaper per gallon than higher mileage gas. Im not a scientist but from what I've seen personally I think its kinda a scam. K9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tahoe Chief Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 The new production or "replacement" refrigerants are not better than the old refrigerants. It took many years of trying all the alternatives b-4 R-12 was adopted. Some of the alternatives due work better but due to toxicity or volatility weren't viable for household use for obvious reasons, like momma getting out the butter knife to defrost the freezer and poking a hole when there was liquid ammonia in the system !!!! Instant death for the entire household !!! Bottom line the current production blends are the same old but the chemistry has been tweaked a bit. Currently the acceptable refrigerant for US use is R-134a it is the current production use product,there are many substitutes for it being used in the field. It (134a) is a more fragile refrigerant due to the need for using a different lubricating oil in the system that is very hygroscopic "think sponge like",this in turn when moisture is introduced, microscopic naturally occurring leaks in brazed pipe fittings where due to pressure differentials can be drawing a vacuum,this moisture when blended with the oil under heat and pressure causes an acidic byproduct that eats away at the protective coating on the compressor windings then suspends this material in the oil and lays it down in the capillary tube causing a restricted refrigerant flow,then eventual compressor failure results due to the increasing work load on the motor and the rest is history. Now G.E. wants to go back to using Isobutane,,,think Bic lighters,,the cost is low it's very easy to make and ,,,,,drum roll please,,,really cheap !! Back to my earlier statements on volatility,,now Joe sixpack takes this thing down to the end of the road when he is done with it and dumps it off,,not real safe,,then there's a guy like me that is out in the field all day with all this new "Environmentally friendly" junk ,,, Oh sorry mam I know your refrigerator only lasted 4 years but that's the new normal due to environmental concerns. R-12 was non toxic odorless non flammable and worked VERY well for a very long time with out some of the separation issues the blends have. I see refrigerators out in the field still working after 60 years, kinda great for the environment,no need to make new ones no need to land fill the old ones but hey why make things that last when you can play environmental savior and be popular instead !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallRider Posted July 10, 2009 Share Posted July 10, 2009 No worries for me now that my flux capacitor is back online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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