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Fate of indian - reliable source?


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I have read some older threads about his and it seems that IMC is dead and the intellectual property (and physical poperty of the factory, or has that already been sold off?) is still in limbo. Last I read, the auction was called off and an outright sale was wanted.

 

I'm not familar with all the trials and tribulations that Audax put Indian through. I was not in the US to keep up. I have read a lot of specualtion about the fate of Indian from going to Alabama to staying in California under a new owner. What I am curious about is is where to get accurate information.

 

I went to Business Week magazine and found nothing. I know motorcyle magazines do news reporting, but often late and sometimes with the writer's bias.

 

What is the holdup of an eventual sale? What is a reasonable price the company would go for? Being in bankruptcy, I would not think the price to be astronomical. Of course, the bankruptcy sales that I have witnessed never involved a WHOLE company before, but I would speculate $10 million or much less. Am I way off?

___

 

And, after reading many threads here I must make my own HD comment as well. I am a young guy, 30, who has been into sport bikes all my life and now that I am getting a little older (but not really!!!), I find that I want to add a cruiser to the crotch rocket. And, I know that I do not know every young person in the US, I have met a lot of your sports bike riders in my life and I am yet to meet more than a handful who would ever consider a Hardly Nothing.

 

Overpriced, common as dirt and usually soon becoming that themselves, horrible ride, etc. harley had to drop out of AMA because they could not and would not technologically advance. You don't wanna make better products??? Then don't expect younger buyers to care. I read that Harley sales are slipping. I am not really surprised. There is nothing exclusive, special, or interesting about them to warrant their price or devotion.

 

Going to bike shows, I know Harely riders and sport bike riders don't really get along or even respect each other, but I have seen many times that when an Indian rolls up EVERYBODY pays attention. Indian has turned me on to cruisers when HD had so turned me off.

 

I hope to see the return of Indian motorcycles with more modern bikes added to their classic line. ANd, I must say that I am surprised that someone has not yet bought the company and brought it back. With proper intelligent management, the market is already there and the bikes can sell themselves.

 

Well, thats just my .02Yen in my thesis of a first post. Hope to learn more about Indian bikes, both new and old.

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troglodyte;

You have come to the right place-good people (ignore ant :D ) mucho knowledge-and people who will share it-Man I have learned a lot.

Welcome aboard when are you going to hunt one down and join us?

I'm a pessimist but I don't think they will be back any time soon :(

Just kidding about ant-his intelligence is way above most of us so we just have a hard time understanding him from time to time :rasp:

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Indian may not be back for a long time. After the IP is purchased, a new factory, equipment, and workforce would have to be sourced and trained. Thats a lot of money right there, even if Indian started out small.

 

To me, if I bought the Indian IP (come oooooooon POWERBALL Jackpot!), I would sit on it for at least a year. I would scour the Indian community for things they want, don't want what pissed them off about the last Indian go around (it seems a lot, though I was not in the US or into cruisers to keep up) and what they actually did right. I would also delve into the cruiser community and see what bikes are missing from this market that people want.

 

Laugh if you want, but I would have a bike to cater to women and short people. I beleive this is a larger market than people realize. Women want to ride with their husbands but not on the back anymore and short people want to ride a stylish crusier without falling off. I'd also make this entry level Indian a lot more affordable than the rest of the line.

 

Further, I would keep the front office staff very small and I would go out to shows and also meet multi-line dealers to make a personal connection for them to know they can go to the top. Somebody wants answers, then come straight to me. I would hire a plant manager and a VP who knows a lot more about business than I do but he/she must be immersed in the motorcyle world. No posers allowed. I'd also go to WyoTech and other schools looking for the best, brightest, and hottest mechanics and techs out there.

 

I would want forward thinking people who want to buld something special. I would also build up parts inventory before releasing the bikes to be able to supply replacement parts in addition to being able to supply the current Indian market. As for merchandising, I would find out what the market would bare. I think that HD has whored out its name too much. For Indian, of course, I would do clothing, watches, and other souveniers.

 

No doubt, my ideas are not that much different than every other bike fan who would want to buy Indian. Start out with maybe 2000 bikes each year for a few years and build a name on quality not just nostalgia. For a premier Chief, I would also allow customers to customize the bike before delivery. Sure, it costs more, but the buyer gets a custom bike that won't even be like all the other Indians out there.

 

If you do it right, the company will live longer than just 5 years.

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Welcome to the forum!! IF you really want to get a feel for Indians and their owners go to the section for up and coming events and check out the Indian Rally at Indian Point. It is next weekend (which is short notice). But if MO isn't too far from you then this will be one of you best chances to meet and talk to a large group of us who love our Indians and don't mind a bit telling anyone about them >
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And if my aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

 

What is the holdup of an eventual sale?

 

Liability. No one wants to touch this tar baby.

 

What is the holdup of an eventual sale? What is a reasonable price the company would go for? Being in bankruptcy, I would not think the price to be astronomical.

 

They're all grand ideas, however IMC is not in bankruptcy. The doors are shut.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, I'm sure there's a laundry list of things that the new IMC owner would/will/have do/done.

 

Women want to ride with their husbands but not on the back anymore and short people want to ride a stylish crusier

 

And I want a shoebox full of $50's

 

IMO, The truth is - those bikes are out there, albeit not under the Indian name, they're called metric cruisers.

 

Good for another 50 yrs

 

-Joe

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Greetings Troglodyte, And welcome

 

        In reality Indian or actually IMC isnt out of business or in bankruptcy, all they did in essence was close the manufacturing facility and liquidate all spare parts and inventory, as well as walk away with alot of other peoples money. Warranty issues aside they defaulted on many lines of credit from their vendors, stole the funds from dealers who were to be reimbursed for work performed, walked out on obligations to supply a line of motorcycles and sundry items to people who sunk everthing into opening a dealership, they balked at investors who were ready to bail them out {albeit foreign} because they didnt want to relinquish any control, just wanted the money. They had in the neighborhood of 11 VP's who more than likely were in the six figure income bracket, and this from a company that was selling maybe 3,000 bikes a year, in truth they are still open and making money on the marketing end of it, i dont think they are motivated to sell because to my knowledge nobody has filed a class action or any other civil or criminal case against them, and what they did to the company and its customers is just like Enron and Tyco executives did only on a smaller scale...

  Well in the end i guess what i am trying to say my friend is get yours while you still can, this will be litigated for years to come, and when the dust settles Indian will be back but not in the form we know it today, todays Indian is tomorrows classic and they are the sweetest looking ride on the road, bar none.

   One of our IIRA brothers Mike "Lumpy" Wilson  who recently pass said it all when he coined the phrase "We Dont Need No Stinkin Factory", he was right because right here on this forum you can get more accurate and more reliable information than you could have gotten from any factory rep. and you not only get top notch assistance but you get a family of brothers and sisters who will be there when you need them.....

    Man that trip to Starbucks tonight after dinner sure made me long winded, you can now return to your regularly scheduled program......

 

Kirk Out

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Indian fucked all the dealers from the get go, or any potential dealers, they were asking for Harely Donaldson inventories and showrooms, 2 million upfront, another 2 million in inventory and and another million for merchandise and a full service shop thats another million,(as in dollars) sure they could of done it for less, but they wanted "Arlen-Ness " looking buildings to attract the yuppies .

 

They got it , because there were enough people that really wanted Indian to make it. Alot of these shops were custom bike shops in there own right , they sunk there life saving into it, and Indian sucked the life right out of these guys , great people by the way(the dealers, that is!)!

 

I think MeanGene was a dealer , Indian left him out to dry , but he's still a diehard Indian man , like all of us here!

 

You said it right , when an Indian pulls into the lot of Harely's , peoples faces turn , of course you'll hear the "rubs" tell you that "its a harely" , rubbish! they are just really jealous!

 

I was at a place called Cold Springs not to long ago , a sight for sore eyes , there must have been 12 -14 Indians lined up , it was pretty awsome to say the least, from what I was told , lots of people were taking pictures of the Indians with there kids . the Harelys felt like Jap bikes next to us!

 

Do yourself a favor , go out and buy an Indian , if not Indian , try Victory !

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Please excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a metric cruiser?

 

And while I am at it, I think Excelsior-Henderson died the same way Indian did, right? Greed, marketing without product, and general incompetence? I think that Indian will be back with 5 years, though much smaller and focused than the last go-round. What about Excelsior-Henderson? Who owns the IP rights on that one? Seems like a good brand name for a small custom shop akin to orange County Choppers but a little larger.

 

Doubtful that I will happen though, as I have learned a very important lesson early in my life (due to where I grew up) -

 

Those who have money have no vision and those who have vision have no money.

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Indian and EH are very different stories. EH was playing with the public’s money and with money loaned to them by the state. Indian was all private investment.

 

“””Dakota Bank is hoping to overturn the court's decision to grant bankruptcy protection (to Excelsior-Henderson) and proceed with the auction. Many of the investors who bought into the initial public stock offering of $30 million weren't the only Minnesotans who believed in the company. The state of Minnesota loaned 7.14 million of the taxpayers dollars to the manufacturer. The balance of the loan is due to begin repayment in 2002.”””

 

To compare IMC with Tyco, Enron or any other publicly owned company is incorrect. IMC was always a privately held company.

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To compare IMC with Tyco, Enron or any other publicly owned company is incorrect. IMC was always a privately held company.

The comparison would be that like Enron & Tyco... what IMC ultimately did to the people who sold and supported their product was driven by greed.  

 

But unlike Enron & Tyco... it wasn't illegal - or perhaps better defined as "legal fraud".  It was private money, not public money - therefore, they could (for the most part) do whatever they wanted with it.

 

Which makes the Enron & Tyco execs accountable for their greed (and hopefully crimes).  And makes the IMC execs just greedy assholes.

 

:devil:     :devil:

 

If hell is anything like what Dante described it as, eventually justice will be divine.

 

Dante's Inferno of Hell - Level 8 Malebolge - The Realm of Simple Fraud.  The final stop for Panders and Seducers, Hypocrites and Thieves... wallowing in human excrement, serpents writhing and wrapping around men, bodies torn apart, screams and eternal agony.  

 

 :devil:     :devil:

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Dante's Inferno of Hell - Level 8 Malebolge - The Realm of Simple Fraud.  The final stop for Panders and Seducers, Hypocrites and Thieves... wallowing in human excrement, serpents writhing and wrapping around men, bodies torn apart, screams and eternal agony.  

Sounds like a typical ride on mass transit.

-ANT

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To compare IMC with Tyco, Enron or any other publicly owned company is incorrect. IMC was always a privately held company.

The comparison would be that like Enron & Tyco... what IMC ultimately did to the people who sold and supported their product was driven by greed.  

 

But unlike Enron & Tyco... it wasn't illegal - or perhaps better defined as "legal fraud".  It was private money, not public money - therefore, they could (for the most part) do whatever they wanted with it.

 

Which makes the Enron & Tyco execs accountable for their greed (and hopefully crimes).  And makes the IMC execs just greedy assholes.

 

:devil:     :devil:

 

If hell is anything like what Dante described it as, eventually justice will be divine.

 

Dante's Inferno of Hell - Level 8 Malebolge - The Realm of Simple Fraud.  The final stop for Panders and Seducers, Hypocrites and Thieves... wallowing in human excrement, serpents writhing and wrapping around men, bodies torn apart, screams and eternal agony.  

 

 :devil:     :devil:

And makes the IMC execs just greedy assholes.

 

 

now thats a UNDERSTATEMENT !..... But I know you are TRYING  to be nice about it !... :nod: .. Good Try ! :laugh:

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It's a cruiser you have to use metric tools to work on...which now, funny as it is, includes Harley Davidson.
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Thanks about the info about "metric bikes." Now, I understand.

 

I have a picture I downloaded somewhere off the net of a HD part replacement. Its got the HD symbol and something about being THE American bike.  And, in really small print at the bottom of the label are the words "Made in China." :rotfl:

 

Now, I am sure many will disagree with me about there is NOTHING wrong with a part being made in Japan/China, Hell, the Chinese are capable of making a quality bike, IMO and we know the Japanese can. But, you don't scream that you are THE American bike and yet use parts from overseas.

 

Maybe I am wrong, but being a crotch rocket junkie, I was into unusual sport bikes like Laverda (now bought by Aprilia). They still are a small manufacturer, but they used premium parts that you would expect to have to find as aftermarket parts. You can ask around about Zane Laverdas. No, they aren't as fast as the Japanese bikes but they can handle on a curvy road with anybody.

 

Why doesn't Harley do this? This is not a bash of Harely, but due to who they are, I just don't see why they don't use premium parts for the upper models.

 

I know if I brought back Indian, Excelsior-Henderson, or had my own start-up company that I would use the best parts available for things I could not get in the US. I wouldn't just go overseas solely to get the cheapest part available. You might think doing so will increase profit margin, but when word spreads and parts fail, sales will eventually be hurt.

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To compare IMC with Tyco, Enron or any other publicly owned company is incorrect. IMC was always a privately held company.

The comparison would be that like Enron & Tyco... what IMC ultimately did to the people who sold and supported their product was driven by greed.  

 

But unlike Enron & Tyco... it wasn't illegal - or perhaps better defined as "legal fraud".  It was private money, not public money - therefore, they could (for the most part) do whatever they wanted with it.

 

Which makes the Enron & Tyco execs accountable for their greed (and hopefully crimes).  And makes the IMC execs just greedy assholes.

 

:devil:     :devil:

 

If hell is anything like what Dante described it as, eventually justice will be divine.

 

Dante's Inferno of Hell - Level 8 Malebolge - The Realm of Simple Fraud.  The final stop for Panders and Seducers, Hypocrites and Thieves... wallowing in human excrement, serpents writhing and wrapping around men, bodies torn apart, screams and eternal agony.  

 

 :devil:     :devil:

Reminds me of a girl I used to date.

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I have noticed that the add ons and replacement parts that i have put on my chief that are made in the USA are universally better than any of the China/Taiwan parts that were on the bike. By better i mean, heavier gauge metal, better chrome jobs and usually a more precise fit.
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I'm not a metalurgist, but I would wager that the makeup and quality of our steel is better than what they use. But, I have noticed in general the overall lack of quality of stuff that comes from China. Companies may be saving money on production there, but the consumer is getting shit products in return. Mexico could do better!

 

The only parts that I know that would outsource for a bike are the front shocks.  I think Laverda used Marchesi(spelling?) inverted forks and all reports could not say enough good things about them and that they are usually aftermarket parts that you would not expect on a factory stock bike.

 

Everything else from disc brakes to the engine to the saddle bags could be made and should be made in the US. At least with an import bike, you KNOW its an import bike rather than Harely pretending not to be.

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Did ya ever try to put a lot of torque on a "made in China (Taiwan, etc)" wrench?

'Bout tore my hand of one time when the open end wrench I was using "opened".

What was a 9/16 is now a 5\8, sorta. I've snappen extensions in two, broke u-joints, destroyed ratchets, on and on.

Never again will I own a tool from over there, never!

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:nod: I'm female and short and the Indian Spirit fits me just fine!!!!  Buy an Indian be one of the elite who now owns a

"classic".  The SCOUT and SPIRITs both have S&S engines. :moped:

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I've been doing some research about Indians (and even Excelsior-Henderson....just because I'm curious and I just wanna know) and I have found books at Amazon that detail its original history, but nothing from the Gilroy adventure. I imagine that would be covered in magazine articles?

 

I just wanna know about who the original investors were. How did they get the court to rule in their favor (I think I remember reading that their courtroom competitor actually had a built prototype bike but lacked the funding to carry it through). Why exactly was Gilroy chosen (I would never locate on the West Coast but rather the Mid-West or even South-East)? Just how big was the factory?

 

I guess those questions would apply for Excelsior Henderson as well. I'm trying to expand my knowledge of American motorcycles. As ana side, can you believe that an American investor is actually building and trying to market a crotch rocket?!?!

 

http://www.fischer1.com/

 

Amazing!

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I imagine that would be covered in magazine articles?

 

I just wanna know about who the original investors were. How did they get the court to rule in their favor (I think I remember reading that their courtroom competitor actually had a built prototype bike but lacked the funding to carry it through). Why exactly was Gilroy chosen (I would never locate on the West Coast but rather the Mid-West or even South-East)? Just how big was the factory?

If you go to www.ironindian.com and click on the members forum I have collected a bunch of the news articles about IMC from 1995 - 2004.

 

It will give you a start.

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DAAAAAAAYUUUM! Indian went though some serious bullshit before it ever got to Gilroy. Man, what a fugged up mess it went through..and even now -  :no:

 

The guy from Cycle World magazine said he was glad to see Indian die as it was configured and run in Gilroy. My question to loyalists, is there a way to market Indian in such a way with merchandizing from cigars, to a themed restaurant, to clothing to help fund the motorcycle operation that would not be considered offensive even though a bike was only in development? What about Indian scooters imported from overseas with a few changes and called the Papoose?

 

Is there a way to market the Indian name without a bike that would raise capital and not be offensive to the biking community? His comment just made me wonder. If/when Indian comes back, I think the company should start off very small and use marketing to raise awareness of the return and fund the motorcycle side of the business. If Indian only mades about 500 Chiefs, 500 Scouts, and 500 Spirits then so be it.

 

Do not expand what you cannot pay for, IMO. Eventually, Indian could become more mainstream adding 3 modern naked bikes, at a lower price point, to its line-up to attract younger buyers and expand it technological prowress. I know many may disagree, but I would like to see Indian add a sport bike to its line. Afterall, Indian did make a name by racing, so what better way to show the world what Americans can really do than by having a sport bike join AMA racing and gain some respectability. If such a thing is 10-15 years in the future, then so be it.

 

From what I read about the people holding the Indian IP, these people were not real dedicated motorcyle guys but rather people out to cash in. The funny thins is is that one need only look at Triumph to see how to resurrect a nameplate and built it over time. Me? If I bought the Indian IP, I'd have learned as much as possible about how Triumph did what they did and pattern the return of Indian on that. You know, sometimes...sometimes running a business really isn't THAT hard. Thanks for the link. Made for an interesting and sometimes depressing read.

 

 

As an aside, I found where Hanlon wrote a book about Excelsior-Henderson, but I think its just going to be propaganda. I doubt its going to have the dirt/truth about what went wrong.

 

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