Blackdog Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 The whole Indian – Eller/IMC story is available through a number of historical documents we have within IIRA or the various members. Some of it is large so unless you REALLY want to see it on dial-up – don’t click it. If any of you are interested in reading some of the more detailed elements here is the 28th receiver report (194 pages) and the Eller plan without going to e-bay and buying one of the many copies that are now available click here for a PDF. It’s about a 2MB file so it may take some time to download if your connection is slow History and Business plan in Court Receiver Report Documents (June 5 1999). Industry Breakdown, Plans and Financials supporting the receivers final sale to IMC – includes why Eller lost for repeated non-compliance with receiver requirements. All 194 Pages (733k) Court Document with lots of details Eller plan pages 1-14 of 57+ (will post more when I find my other disc) 2.2meg. These files are big due to photographs so I have them on separate discs. Ellers Plan Part 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 That second document is what JW tried to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 25, 2007 Author Share Posted September 25, 2007 (edited) Here is the Eller Prototype for the Scout, Edited September 25, 2007 by Blackdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Resort Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Question: What do you call a boatload of Indian revivalists at the bottom of the ocean? Answer: A good start. We know, we know...you're fed up to your fedora with all these Second Comings of Springfield shenanigans. Us to, but here comes another chapter. Pull up a chair, get comfortable. When last we left this whole sordid mess, Sterling Consulting Corp., the Colorado-based receivership trying to consolidate the various claimants to the Indian name, had slapped Kawasaki with cease-and-desist papers in regard to the 1500 Drifter, Kawi's skirt-fendered homage to a 1940s Chief. Small stuff, it turns out, compared to the fireworks that soon followed. Back in 1997 when Sterling offered the Indian name for sale (for $20 million, with no outright guarantee it actually owned the rights), only one buyer stepped up, a Lonnie Labriola, former Sterling employee, who came up with $6 million (mostly from the Cow Creek Band of Oregon's Umpqua Tribe) and pledged the remaining $14 mil. Doing business as Eller Industries, he then started gathering people. Bob Lutz, recently retired chairman at Chrysler, came onboard as an adviser; James Parker of RADD front-end fame worked up several chassis/bodywork combos; Roush Industries, famous for it's NASCAR involvement, was charged with developing a motor. A capable bunch who, as the photos show, came up with a none-too-shabby mockup, certainly better than any neo-Indian that has come before. Bear in mind that the motor shown here is cast in resin, but the rest of the bike is metal and shows some serious engineering—as in wheels, brakes, fork, etc. that are purpose-built and not just aftermarket pick-ups. Only problem is that on the eve of the bike's unveiling in early November, the Sterling group, claiming Labriola had defaulted on payments, got a restraining order preventing the bike from being shown. Seems Sterling had another deal percolating, one involving yet more players, including Indian Motorcycle of Canada, the apparent owner of the trademark north of the border, and the California Motorcycle Company, maker of clone Harleys. This new entity proposed to hang skirted fenders on CMC's Big Twin lookalikes to make 35 "limited-edition, signature-series, new 1999 Indian Chiefs," all yours for $24,000 a pop. If this sounds like a fake Harley trying to be a fake Indian—offensive as that may be—you are correct, sir. Says Allan Girdler, author of the definitive Harley-Davidson and Indian Wars, "When I was a kid, Pat Boone covering Gene Vincent songs was the worst thing in the world...but this is like Elton John doing Little Richard." As if things weren't weird enough already, now Eller is seeking an injunction against Sterling, as is the group of bilked Indian investors the receivership was formed to present in the first place! For its part, Sterling suggests the CMC-built device may soon have a proprietary engine, which, if true, would take some of the stink off that particular project. Kawasaki, by the way, wanting to avoid a protracted legal battle has agreed to fork over a one-time fee of $75,000 to the Canadian group, providing a judge okay's that sale—although given recent legal developments, hard to say when (or if) that might be. Anyway, that's the story so far, highly abridged version. More fireworks to follow. Cycle World February 1999 Page 26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Resort Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Concept drawings of the Warrior and Scout from Eller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Resort Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Eller has been talked about on this forum since it began. They were the ones who were suppose to get Indian from the courts back in 1998 but Block, the court appointed receiver, allegedly made some sort of back room deal with the Canadian and he canned the SIGNED deal that was made with Eller and handed it over to the Canadians (headed by Murray Smith). Eller had finished rolling chassies of the Chief and resin models of the engine. They had a line on a in-line four engine for an other bike. And the had concepts for a Scout and a Warrior. Lots of the old posts were lost during the many crashes that happened with the old software so the earliest mention I can find was here, back on Dec. 22 2003. On the Iron Indian Riders forum they have a section dedicated to Indian history back to 1995 when Philip Zanghi was busted for selling his pot of fools gold. And, at the same time Wayne Baughman was "bringing Indian back" in New Mexico. Both these guys got in big trouble for their games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Mark Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Thanks, guys. I already knew a pretty good bit of this, but some of the stuff was new to me, and very interesting. I knew Eller got screwed. It looks like Labriola was the reason. (Or maybe we should make that "excuse".) He looks to be another of the Philip Zhanghi-Wayne Baughman school of business, obviously. I wonder what it was about Indian that attracted con men, fools and charlatans. (Yes, that's a rhetorical question, and not directed at anyone on EITHER side of the current situation.) Just imagine: in some parallel universe, we are all riding Indians with Roush engines, state-of-the-art suspensions and frames, and thumbing our noses at the lowly HD riders. (Well, we do that last part anyway. We'd just have more justification...) I'd love to see some better pics of the Warrior prototype. Give me something else to pine away for. -Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Resort Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 Labriola got screwed IMHO Richard Block made out like a king in this deal IMHO His job would have been over at the close of the deal with Eller. The Canadians (Murray Smith) promised him something like 250K in wind down fees if the deal went to them. Plus if you follow what happened after that Block and Smith went on to Quantum Cycles, American Motorcycle Company and a few other deals since they teamed up with Indian. No matter what Eller did Block was not going to honor the contract. IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aikenscout Posted September 25, 2007 Share Posted September 25, 2007 someone say "Rousch"? damn, Eller woulda had the same eventual fate as Gilroy anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Labriola got screwed IMHO Richard Block made out like a king in this deal IMHO His job would have been over at the close of the deal with Eller. The Canadians (Murray Smith) promised him something like 250K in wind down fees if the deal went to them. Plus if you follow what happened after that Block and Smith went on to Quantum Cycles, American Motorcycle Company and a few other deals since they teamed up with Indian. No matter what Eller did Block was not going to honor the contract. IMHO IYHO? H? Y,LMSCDH!!! ROTFLMMFAO!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Mark Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Labriola got screwed IMHO Depends. Did he, or did he NOT default on payments to Sterling? If he didn't, then Block would not have had any decent legal grounds to cancel the contract with Eller. If he did, then Eller would have had NO legal recourse when the deal went sour, which appears to have been the case. At that point, the old American recourse for wrongs would have kicked in: "Sue the bastards blind". That didn't happen, which, to me, means that their legal counsel must have told them that they didn't have a leg to stand on. I'm not saying Block didn't make out like a bandit, he did. I'm not saying he isn't a chicken-fucking bastard, either. I AM saying that the root cause of Eller losing the contract DOES, at face value anyway, appear to be Labriola defaulting on payments to the recievers. No matter what Eller did, Black wasn't going to honor the contract? I agree that he was going to TRY not to honor the contract...but unless he had legal grounds not to, he would have been FORCED to, by the courts. Any attorneys out there want to weigh in with an opinion on this? We're just flapping our gums, we ain't experts. -Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maldev Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Yup. That's been pointed out a few times but people tend to want to gloss over that bit and would rather wax poetic about "what could have been" had Eller been successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Eller had a vision. Right or wrong it was a vision that speaks to some of us. Eller fell on their dicks meeting the mandates and screwed the pooch. Right or wrong that's what happens. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 I am glad he did not get it.....too damn retro on the bike...maybe the finished product would have been looking less like a snap model he put together but did not care for some of the visuals on the bike... vision, passion.....hell he could not meet his obligations. So exactly why are we talking about this again? Did Eller do or say something....and I thought JW started this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snogoer Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 I am glad he did not get it.....too damn retro on the bike...maybe the finished product would have been looking less like a snap model he put together but did not care for some of the visuals on the bike... vision, passion.....hell he could not meet his obligations. So exactly why are we talking about this again? Did Eller do or say something....and I thought JW started this thread? Eller had one thing going for him he had Bob Lutz in his corner and that man has vision and lets not forget more money then God! Lutz is close to being a billionaire (literally) and he was offering his insight and his cash with Eller. Lutz wanted nothing to do with the Gilroy folks which says something in itself. In other words, he seen the writing on the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maldev Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 (edited) Eller had a vision. Right or wrong it was a vision that speaks to some of us.Eller fell on their dicks meeting the mandates and screwed the pooch. Right or wrong that's what happens. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Are you sure you don't mean that they are mutually exclusive? A good vision versus poor business practice? I liked the look of the Eller bikes as well. My only problems were that the bikes were closer in size to the Springfields and I've never been a fan of springer-style front ends for their bounce in turns and on our third-world raods out here in Kalifornia. On the business side, if they stumbled this early into the fray, there's no telling what else may have slipped through or not. All conjecture but I've seen plnety of companies with exciting visions go up and under due to poor business management. In the long run, I think Eller would have given us a better technologically developed motorcycle than Gilroy but may have been hampered even more heavily by critics baching them as Springfield clones more so than our HD clones did. Then again, at least th critics may have gotten the brand right with Eller. Edited September 26, 2007 by Maldev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Resort Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 The Eller Four concept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badndn Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 i fail to see the facination that some have with eller. i also fail to see the "vision" he had for indian. he cobbled together a "bike" with a wooden engine. he wrote some whimsical words about what he would do with indian. while nice to read, said nothing really. he came to a gun fight with a butter knife. given more than one month, i think most here could have come up with a better presentation. although he MAY have made the best indian ever, he didn't earn the chance. he deserved to lose. even if you think the proceedings were impartial, he certainly didn't deserve to win the name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 The Eller Four concept That is not a bad looking bike. I would like to see a four or six out of Indian again in modern times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdog Posted September 26, 2007 Author Share Posted September 26, 2007 Damn! I had forgotten how FINE the Eller prototype was. Note the design cues that go straight back to the 40's and 50's Chief's? The huge similarity with the engines, right down to the cooling fins on the heads? Now I'm pissed off at Gilroy all over again!!! Thieving, lying motherfuckers!!! Am I the ONLY one who remembers, when IMC was still up and running, how many of us were dogging them out on a daily basis? How many times people on here were ranting about how fucked up the company was? How they'd rushed our bikes to market without adequate R&D? How all they cared about was marketing the bikes, and feeding all of us a line of bullshit? How they were more concerned with selling t-shirts and coffee cups than making our engines run right? You know, the ones that BLOW UP at 10K miles? How crummy (most, not all) our dealers were? And that they were crummy 'cause they got shitty factory support? Hel-LO??? Anybody? Anybody? Maybe I just imagined all that shit. My memory ain't what it used to be. I'm takin' my grouchy ass back to bed. -Doc OK as Promised here is the whole Eller plan – except his financials which I will get up another time. Files are between 2.7 and 3.3 meg per section. Eller Plan Page 0-8 http://ndnrdr.com/images/Indian/pg00thru08.pdf Eller Plan Page 9-15 http://ndnrdr.com/images/Indian/pg09thru15.pdf Eller Plan Page 16-23 http://ndnrdr.com/images/Indian/pg16thru23.pdf Eller Plan Page 24-28 http://ndnrdr.com/images/Indian/pg24thru28.pdf Eller Plan Page 29-33 http://ndnrdr.com/images/Indian/pg29thru33.pdf Eller Plan Page 34-42 http://ndnrdr.com/images/Indian/pg34thru42.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Mark Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 The Eller Four concept Gorgeous. It looks though, like it would suffer from the same problems that plagued many of the Indian fours, and the current Dakota. The rear cylinders are gonna be hot as hell, and the exhaust has a really close proximity to your leg...not to mention the family jewels, which I prefer to remain uncooked, thank you. There are really good engineering reasons that the Japs went with transverse mounting of their threes and fours. Water cooled would be even better. I just hope SOMEone does it. I REALLY love the look of all four of the Eller bikes, (even though the Chief was too damn SMALL) but I have to agree with badndn: they brought a knife to a gunfight. They didn't come out swinging, for sure. Damn shame. -Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Posted September 26, 2007 Share Posted September 26, 2007 Eddie, some of us are fascinated by all things Indian motorcycle, even mopeds. Hell, some of us are avid defenders of motorcycle companies that have not made motorcycles. Some of us are fans of motorcycles not only made in Gilroy. Pop can't understand why anyone would not want to discuss the various weird avenues this name has gone down. It's incredible stuff and every rock overturned exposes another rock. Every time we undertake nitpicking the history some nugget drops out that I get to examine and accept or reject. I know a little bit about a couple things and them things got history too and maybe a buncha stuff I don't know fuckall about has weirder history than the Indian name, but I'll be befucked if I know one thing that does. Or am I missing the memo where if it didn't come from the Garlic patch or the Carolina Hills it don't add tang to the gumbo? Brock, we done head gaskets and relays on this board to where I dream fuckin head gaskets and relays. I'm chafin at the bit to see some other stuff get jawed on around here. Eller is the trashtalk de jour. Hey, works for me. All kinds of inference of backroom chicanery in that chunk of our history. Much of it, very much of it, open to subjective review. It may all be as pure as driven snow, but the way it's been presented I could write a novel and focus group about a half a dozen different endings. Of course, I would not use any a their picks. If the ability to meet obligations wuz the litmus test for visionaries, this old world would be a far different place than it is. My money sez it would suck for motorcycles and free men. Neither commodity is value added to a fudiciarily prudent and mangerially proficient society. I got respect for the buttondowners, but you'll find Pop inna backroom throwin dice and bullshit with the ne'erdowells, scalliwags and other creative types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badndn Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Eddie, some of us are fascinated by all things Indian motorcycle, even mopeds.Hell, some of us are avid defenders of motorcycle companies that have not made motorcycles. Some of us are fans of motorcycles not only made in Gilroy. Pop can't understand why anyone would not want to discuss the various weird avenues this name has gone down. It's incredible stuff and every rock overturned exposes another rock. Every time we undertake nitpicking the history some nugget drops out that I get to examine and accept or reject. I know a little bit about a couple things and them things got history too and maybe a buncha stuff I don't know fuckall about has weirder history than the Indian name, but I'll be befucked if I know one thing that does. Or am I missing the memo where if it didn't come from the Garlic patch or the Carolina Hills it don't add tang to the gumbo? Brock, we done head gaskets and relays on this board to where I dream fuckin head gaskets and relays. I'm chafin at the bit to see some other stuff get jawed on around here. Eller is the trashtalk de jour. Hey, works for me. All kinds of inference of backroom chicanery in that chunk of our history. Much of it, very much of it, open to subjective review. It may all be as pure as driven snow, but the way it's been presented I could write a novel and focus group about a half a dozen different endings. Of course, I would not use any a their picks. If the ability to meet obligations wuz the litmus test for visionaries, this old world would be a far different place than it is. My money sez it would suck for motorcycles and free men. Neither commodity is value added to a fudiciarily prudent and mangerially proficient society. I got respect for the buttondowners, but you'll find Pop inna backroom throwin dice and bullshit with the ne'erdowells, scalliwags and other creative types. you took me wrong pop. i am probably as big an indian nut as anybody. love to learn more about it everyday. have an "indian library". it is all fun to talk about, and needs to be talked about....but many appear to think this guy may have been the saviour of indian had he been given the chance. my disagreeing with this notion is PART of discussing it...isn't it? you are the dude that always claims to call a spade a spade and demand respect for differing attitudes. the man drew some pretty pictures...(or hired someone to draw pretty pictures) he came up with a "plan". he built a motorcycle with a fake engine (sounds familar somehow)....and he was apparently terrible at keeping up with shit even in the planning stages. i don't see where he was so great. i think the right people got the rights....at that particular moment in time...for particular reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 (edited) If I had to compare Eller and Gilroy... let's say I had to choose one or the other... I'm taking Gilroy with all it's faults... I don't care for the Eller..... Gilroy got the right amount of nostalgia, for me, in what they did... round jugs, bottlecap rockers, primary that sorta resembles the earlier primary, the fenders are right on all models.... If it was Eller I'd be riding a '99 Heritage Springer... just me but I think Gilroy hit the nail on the head with asthetic design... the may have missed the boat with quality... but I got 33000 miles on the piece of shit... and I'm still going strong.... keep the 4 cylinder too... didn't like the Springfield 4's ..... I'm kinda partial to American air cooled v-twins .... with pushrods..... fuck the EPA.... Edited to add American to the v-twin stuff... Edited September 27, 2007 by stu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu Posted September 27, 2007 Share Posted September 27, 2007 Oh yeah... I don't give a shit for the guy from New Mexico that scammed everyone either..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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